Happy Hallow’s Eve-Eve-Eve-Eve, Tordotcommers! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread Redux!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapter 9 of The Eye of the World, originally reread in this post, and Chapters 10 and 11, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as e-books, except for the portion covering A Memory of Light, which should become available soon.
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 9: Tellings of the Wheel
Redux Commentary
Rand’s dream about the White Tower is really interesting, in retrospect. The dream could be loosely interpreted to be a warning against trusting something that seems too good to be true (which is valid), or less loosely as a warning against trusting Aes Sedai (also valid), but I think the real warning was simply that Rand should never go to the White Tower, specifically. It was a warning that Rand took so to heart (consciously or otherwise), in fact, that he never once set foot in the place—at least not until the very end of the series. And even in AMOL, his visit was for almost literally a hot second: he basically stuck his head in, told Egwene Tag you’re it, come get me, and left.
(You know. More or less.)
And given what we now know about how thoroughly riddled with Darkfriends the Tower was, that seems like it was a very very good move. Good job, vaguely prophetic dream!
As a side note, I seem to recall some folks being skeptical of the sheer volume of Black Ajah versus non-evil (or at least non-Evil™) Aes Sedai there ended up being—I think someone once calculated the percentage of Aes Sedai who were Darkfriends and it was somewhere between a quarter to one third of the total—but you know, it actually does make sense, given that the White Tower was supposed to be the Shadow’s most powerful opponent in the Last Battle. If you had the opportunity to infiltrate your enemy’s equivalent of nuclear weapons bunkers, why wouldn’t you concentrate on that above any other, wimpier facilities?
Anyway.
I sort of hate to pick at the tale of the fall of Manetheren, because it really is a great story, but this time around, I couldn’t help wondering why, if Eldrene was an Aes Sedai powerful enough to melt down an entire city (even if only as a Final Strike kind of thing), she wasn’t out on the battlefield helping Aemon in the first place. I suppose evacuating the city and guarding the refugees was equally important if not more so, but I dunno, it strikes me as a little bit of a misallocation of resources. Oh well. Still a great story, flowery language and all. (Seriously, I didn’t remember that it was quite so… High Chant, I guess? But it works. I bet Thom was jealous.)
Something else that always mildly bothered me, though, is that as far as I remember, we never learn how Emond’s Field actually got its name. Was Emond a person, or is that Old Tongue for “Last Stand” or something? Sounds like it should be a person, but I don’t ever remember learning who he or she was.
…Unless “Emond” is a corruption of “Aemon,” which I guess is rather possible, actually. Just as “al’Thor” is probably a shortened version of “al Thorin,” and so on. Which gives the name two sly references for the price of one, heh.
(But then, who was Deven, and what was so awesome about his ride that they named a whole village after it?)
(What?)
Chapter 10: Leavetakings
Redux Commentary
“It is ridiculous!” [Lan] retorted. “There’s no reason for her to come along, and every reason for her not to.”
“There is a reason for it,” Moiraine said calmly. “A part of the Pattern, Lan.” The Warder’s stony face showed nothing, but he nodded slowly.
Ah, hindsight is fun. Like here, where you realize that Moiraine just told Lan that Egwene was a channeler without actually saying it.
Also I think I say something about this later but man was Lan mouthy and volatile in TEOTW.
I can only assume Thom suspected right from the beginning who Rand/Mat/Perrin might turn out to be, because otherwise I see no sane reason for him to insist on tagging along with a group who are basically nothing but one giant Shadowspawn magnet. In fact I’m not sure even that’s a sane reason.
“Bela,” Rand said, getting a look from Lan that made him wish he had kept silent. But he knew he could not dissuade Egwene; the only thing left was to help. “Bela may not be as fast as the others, but she’s strong. I ride her sometimes. She can keep up.”
Yay, Bela!
I probably should say something about the icons at some point (e.g., that I’m actually using them this time, whereas for some reason in the original reread I didn’t think to add them until TGH), but right now I’m mostly just puzzled at why this chapter has the staff icon and the previous one has the dragon’s fang. It seems like it would be much more apropos to have it the other way around, considering how Moiraine was flaunting her staff in Chapter 9.
“Wolves!” Perrin exclaimed
Heh. Yep, still funny.
And yep, “Draghkar” still sounds like a horrible men’s cologne. But at least the “evil breath-sucking” theme holds true, eh?
Chapter 11: The Road to Taren Ferry
Redux Commentary
It reinforces just how sheltered the Emond’s Field folk are that Rand regards the people of a village a day’s ride away as suspicious foreigners. I mean, there’s isolation, and then there’s living in a virtual cocoon.
And, er. Other than what I said in my original commentary, about how I didn’t realize Rand channeled for the first time in this chapter on first reading (and to reiterate how cool the subtlety of it was), there isn’t much else to say about it.
Well, except that actually you can scratch what I said earlier about switching the icons of the two previous chapters: given that Rand channels here for the first time, I totally would have put the dragon’s fang on this chapter, put the leafless tree on Chapter 1o, and the staff on 9. There, I’ve retroactively solved a HUGE FLAW in the novel. Everything is okay now! Go me!
(*rolls eyes at self*)
Oh, and also I maybe want to mention that it’s also only in retrospect that I got how powerful Moiraine is shown to be by this chapter, comparatively speaking. I mean, obviously we get specifically told later that her power ranking is up near the top for Aes Sedai (at least until the Supergirls come along), but even without that, cleansing fatigue from ten people and horses, plus creating a fogbank that covers miles of river is no small potatoes. And she ain’t done yet.
But we’re done, at least for now! Have a Happy Halloween weekend, if that’s your thing, and if you survive the sugar crash come back next Tuesday for more!
If memory serves me correctly, and I am pretty sure it does. Emond’s Field was originally Aemon but changed over time. That actually happens quite often, for those Walking Dead fans, the original name of Atlanta, Georgia was ironically Terminus.
Thoroughly enjoying the redux. Love my Tuesdays because of it. :)
Yes, Emonds = Aemon. It is said somewhere.
Wow, never noticed the icon mess up. Bad Harriet!
Cranky Lan is fun Lan.
I wonder if the icon logic was really fully thought out yet. Could the Dragon’s Fang be somehow related to the dream?
I always interpreted Emond’s as Aemon’s too.
Well, here’s the thing about Moiraine, she’s out in the field actually using her power a lot. This is something the Greens maybe should have done a little more of, but Moiraine has been actively out and about since New Spring and no doubt her serious practice helps her natural level of power. Experience goes a long ways in most careers.
Re: Emond’s Fielders live in a cocoon.
I recently started a reread, and generalizing is something RJ seemed to love doing. I’ll get back on national traits later, but what bugged me here is that the people living in Emond’s Field seem awfully narrowminded.
ALL people in Taren Ferry are untrustworthy;
ALL Coplins and Congars are troublemakers.
Maybe it’s because RJ wanted to draw a parallell here with Hobbits, but I don’t think I would want to live in Emond’s Field (and I grew up in a small town). tbh, I wouldn’t want to live in the Shire as well ;)
DougL @5
For Jordan’s world design, both men and women have a fixed peak point in terms of amount of The Power they can hold. What does improve with experience is control, and improvisation.
Fiddler @6
Unfortunately this is just a small town’s way of thinking, whether justified or not. It’s not as if modern day people are immune to it either.
Deven was not the rider, but the animal being ridden, and clearly a distant ancestor of Bela.
S
@6, I think the opposite is the case. RJ’s comments made it sound like he liked the hobbits least of all in LOTR. They were very much super-idealized Englishmen by design. I think RJ wanted to step back from that. Two Rivers folk are still very much an idealized people (if more American than English, I think), but RJ made sure to give them a few common foibles, including what’s mentioned here and the unorthodox (for Randland) views on sheltering women.
Having only listened to the audio books, it sometime surprises me how things are spelled when I finally see it written down.
From the audio books I actually thought that Emond’s Field and Aemon’s Field was the same thing. They sounded enough alike that my mind just agreed it must be the same thing. So I never wondered about that.
The Dragon Fang is the correct icon for the chapter it’s on. They are leaving the inn, the inn that the dragons fang was put on the door by the narrow minded, because of Moiraine being and Aes Sedai(as bad as a darkfriend to the most narrow minded). A crowd whipped up by the marking on the door and those narrow minded fools. The Fall of Manetheren is one of the great scenes of the book, wish someone would write that. It would be awesome.
I always wondered what “the Myrddraal” in Rand’s dream looked like, since he hadn’t yet seen one while awake. Or maybe he didn’t see it, only heard it, but knew what it was. Dreams are like that.
Draghkar could totally be the name of a cologne, one purported to make the wearer irresistable. :-)
I believe this is the only time we see a Draghkar used as a scout instead of an assassin or battlefield fighter. With good reason, since they apparently are readily misled into giving false reports. This also indicates that they can talk (not just “croon” or shriek). I’d have liked to see/hear that, and we never do. Presumably the Myrddraal couldn’t see through its eyes or whatever they do with ravens etc., which would’ve been a more reliable method. Right?
(I have Many Unanswerable Questions about Draghkar…)
Rand has seen a Myrddraal (the black rider) .
Thom missed Moiraine’s performance because he was in the stable.
Emond’s Field is Aemon’s Field, the place of his last battle.
Minor quibble Leigh as you’ve said it in last two re-reads – Rand went to Tar Valon in Towers of Midnight, not AMOL…
Keep up the fantastic work! Love reading these every week :)
@11 – Agreed. The Dragon’s Fang icon is appropriate where it is. The Fang is usually used to represent persecution or bad omens regarding the power, such as the mob gathering to ‘burn out’ Mo. & co. For Rand Channeling the first time, the Dragon Icon would be more applicable, but a little bit of a give away ;)
I like the parochial generalizations of the Two Rivers folks. I mean, I don’t like it in the sense of I-want-to-subscribe-to-your-newsletter type of way, but it really helps establish the setting and tone of the narrative, draw us in to the story, and leand an air of quaint authenticity to the proceedings. Moiraine’s telling of the Manatheran story and quelling the mob was one of the high points of my first read and the point at which I knew I had something special in my hands.
EDIT: Rand formally visited Tar Valon at the beginning of Towers of Midnight to face Eg. and the whole Hall of the Tower, though I think there was an informal visit in AMOL. In fact, I think it is during this visit that Rand and Eg. discover that the seals are fake.
Having grown up in a very small rural town in Nebraska, most of the depictions of the people there rang true to me. My home town had 260 people, there were 10 in my high school graduating class and we distrusted the people from the next town over 7 miles away. Of course that’s because it was a BIG town of 850 or so.
We had good, solid, salt of the earth farmers and townsfolk. Some idiots and trouble makers but mostly damn good people.
It didn’t have enough for me and I left immediatly after High School and never looked back. Never went to Tar Valon though…
In contrast my best friend left to college with me, graduated, married his high school sweetheart and moved back home and has been there ever since. I sometimes envy his contentment but would not have traded the whirlwind of my life after leaving for anything.
My town had a Cenn Buie’ and a family of Coplins. This section has always rung true for me personally. Emond’s Field is real and captures small town americana in very deep ways. I imagine many of the readers that grew up in a small village would find parallels.
The fact that Rand was channeling into Bela did not dawn on me until Moraine mentioned how well Bela was doing with a speculative look at Rand. Boom, my suspicions were cemented that Rand was indeed the big deal. Perrin and Mat coming into their own took me a bit by surprise actually.
Jeff S.
I am still just an egg.
I agree with Thom wanting to leave with the Moiraine, Lan and company. At this moment, being a stranger is not a good thing. Once Moiraine and company leave, Thom would have been the only true stranger. I think Fain was still their. But he was known by the people of Emond’s Field. Fain peddled his wears through the village during prior seasons. Before coming to Emond’s Field for winternight, Thom had never been to Emond’s Field. (Or at least, the villagers never remembered seeing Thom before. Maybe the story of how Morgasse knew Two Rivers dialect involved Thom somehow.) After the events of Winternight, being a stranger is not a good thing.
I do not agree that at this point, Thom would have known (or even suspected) that Rand, Mat or Perrin could channel, let alone was the Dragon Reborn.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
Some other random thoughts.
I would love to have heard Moiraine’s inner thoughts after Thom made his comment about Draghkars.
When Thom first heard Moiraine give her name and realized she was Aes Sedai, did Thom know she was Moiraine Damodred?
When did Moiraine first realize that the gleamen named Thom was Thom Merrilin, the former court bard in Caemlyn?
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
JeffS@16,
I agree with your analysis of American (and not necessarily only American) small town attitudes.
If these attitudes exist in today’s modern age, with Interstates, television, and the Internet, they would only be further reinforced in a more primitive age, where the only way to get messages from one town to another would be afoot or on horseback, or for truly urgent messages, by carrier pigeon.
It’s also a great pleasure to see the Superfriends move from insular hamlet, to village, to town, and then to the big city, gradually revealing Randland to them and to us.
@13: Oh, right. Think it looked just like the vaguely sinister unruffled man-silhouette he’d seen?
@20, @13 and others: Rand has seen the Myrddryaal twice before having the dream. He has also had a detailed conversation with Lan about them dispelling misconceptions that he had had about them before and giving him other details (the lack of eyes). Then again, for the type of dreams that our heroes have in the series, it is not necessary to have seen anything before to see them in a dream.
@15 Yes, Moiraine’s story of Aemon’s field, and how it figured in world history was a solidifier of the special nature of this story. As I read it, I was putting myself in the shoes of the listeners of Emond’s Field and how I would feel as I came to the realization of how MY HOME, MY LAND was a part of this glorious and heroic battle. Gave me goose bumps and brought tears on the first reading, and on subsequent ones, as when I read it as part of the out loud reading of the series to my wife on my 3rd or 4th reading.
Before we leave Emonds Field, I have to say something that I should have said 2 or 3 posts back. When Rand came into town pulling Tam on the litter and got filled in on how the battle had gone in the town the night before was the first time I came to think of trollocks in a less fearful way. I mean, these 8 or 9 foot tall monsters wearing armor and carrying swords could be chased around by a woman with a frying pan? I got humerous mental pictures.
While I don’t think Thom was thinking one of the boys was the Dragon, I do believe he thought one them might be a channeler and in one of the later novels it was noted that Thom had a thing about how the Aes Sedai handled his nephew which might be why he decided to keep a closer watch on the superboys.
RE: Thom
I always assumed, in hindsight after the first half of EoTW, that Thom left out of a desire to protect the three guys being carted off by an Aes Sedai, due to guilt for having not protected his nephew. And also maybe to get the hell out of Dodge.
Fain wasn’t in Emond’s Field any more. The trollocs took him with them.
He threw back his head and laughed; his feet were lighter than they had ever been, dancing with. . . . He could not remember the name, but it did not seem important.
Is that the first memory of Ilyena?
Does Eldrene use the same weave to kill Dreadlords that Rand used in the Stone of Tear to kill Trollocs?
re: Aemon’s Field -> Emond’s Field
To coin a popular Sunnydale phrase: Duh!
Moiraine even calls the place of the Last Stand of Manetheren “Aemon’s Field” right there in her story. I can’t believe you haven’t made that connection before…
re: Thom’s reasoning
I think it’s quite understandable with the benefit of additional backstory hindsight.
It’s equal parts “I need to protect Owyn this time” and “Being a stranger right here right now might prove somewhat unhealthy very soon, what with Shadowspawn and Aes Sedai and missing kids and alla that” with a pinch of “There’s something BIG going on; might lend itself to a magnum opus or two”.
re: Tar Valon dream
I think it has a somewhat two-fold message. On the surface it’s a warning against Rand going to the White Tower but underneath it’s also a warning against him turning his back completely on it. It’s really subtle and clever how RJ managed to get these two somewhat conflicting messages into the same dream…
The part where Thom reveals himself in the stables (and, more so, when Perrin tells them about Boundless’s brother in The Dragon Reborn) always make me wonder exactly how many people Lan and Moraine have murdered over the years.
“Murdered” as in “he knew too much”?
I don’t think that Moiraine and Lan operate that way. For one, Moiraine herself is bound by the Oaths and Lan has this thing with honour and stuff.
They might be ruthless and pragmatic, like “I can’t kill you…doesn’t mean I have to save you, though.”, but just straight up murdering an innocent witness? No. In this scene, RAND wonders obliquely if they might have killed Thom instead. But he doesn’t know them yet.
Lan is really just reacting to a potential physical threat. He might even intentionally take on the air of “you better convince us of letting you join our group or you’re dead” that Rand picks up on, but I think it’s just an act. Thom calling out or giving the wrong answers would have ended with him waking up bound and gagged in the stable, with a monstrous headache from getting knocked out, but I don’t see them killing him.
The Simion episode in TDR actually confirms this, I think. Lan being pragmatic silently suggests dealing with the situation but Moiraine disagrees. Afterwards she tells Perrin:
So if Simion had been consciously interfering with their plan or if they literally had had to go through him, she might have decided differently, but other than that I think as long as you’re innocent you’re safe. Or well, not in mortal danger anyway. They probably have other not very pleasant ways of dealing with you without resorting to murder. Like Cadsuane completely breaking the First Counsil in Far Madding in order to free Rand.
tl;dr:
If you’re innocent your life is safe though very likely to be destroyed if necessary…
I found this reread a couple of years ago and was not able to follow it from the beginning, but I just wanted to say that I am so glad you are doing this Leigh. I love your posts and reading all the comments. I love this series and I am very glad I can be for the beginning of this reread redux.
“I think someone once calculated the percentage of Aes Sedai who were
Darkfriends and it was somewhere between a quarter to one third of the
total”
Well, power corrupts. That’s not just a truism, but a major theme of the books.
Seriously: women end up at the Tower because they can channel, not because they’re particularly exceptional in any other way. In fact, several comments made in the novels suggest that most contemporary Aes Sedai are women who sought out the Tower (or an Aes Sedai) specifically to find out if they could channel. These are women who wanted to wield the power that Broke the World. It’s no surprise that many turned out not to have the most altruistic of motives.
I always had two conflicting views on the dream.
1 – Rand is being warned away from the trap that was Tar Valon, either because of the Black Ajah or because of the mountain of strings that the Aes Sedai would wind up piling on him. Either way it’s a place for him to avoid.
2 – Ishamael is planting an artificial fear of Tar Valon into Rand’s head as part of his campaign of dream stalking. He wants Rand to stay away because so long as he’s running around the countryside with only a single AS backing him up, he’s vulnerable, most especially to things like dream invasions. Once Rand is in TV and surrounded by the power of the AS, only the Black Ajah has a chance of getting at him, and they’d most likely be forced to try to kill him, while Ishamael wants to corrupt/turn him.
I’m not sure when exactly RJ solidified his ideas about the 13×13 circle-of-evil-inator, but if it wasn’t really firmed up until after tEotW, then (2) is a bit more valid of an interpretation.
That said, I tend to favor (1).
As for Devon’s Ride, I imagine it’d be something akin to the battle of Marathon, where a guy runs away from the Last Stand to warn the civilians and let them know that the king has fallen. Devon (or whatever the original name that was eventually corrupted into Devon) probably died, with his horse, at Devon’s Ride just after delivering his message.
AndrewHB @17
He’d have been sharp enough to notice Moiraine’s interest in the three though. And will probably try to keep up just to see what has an Aes Sedai interested.
birgit @24
Unlikely. Rand’s construct was made of saidin while Eldrene can only use saidar. It might possibly have related effects though, hunting dreadlords instead of shadowspawn. If so, we can see why she killed herself doing it. Rand could barely control it and he already had an uber sa’angrreal in his hands.
re: Aemon ~ Emond
I think one of the themes Jordan would also touch on later sporadically is how languages and names evolve. Moiraine’s native Cairhien used to have a longer name, Heroes of the Horn seem to get variants of their names with each incarnation, etc.
Regarding names, over 1000 yrs in England it would be normal for anglo saxon Aemon to evolve into english Emond. Look at the typical names in the Anglo saxon king list.
Dragkhar, looks like a big bat, flies like a bat, sucks out your life force must be Dracula. #
Devenride.. not to teach you yanks about your own history but Richard Devens of Charlestown Massachussets was involved in and probably was part of Paul Revers Ride, also Sen/Gen Charles Devens of Charlestown Mass, possibly related, was involved in the civil war Virginia campaigns, and was military commander of Charleston NC, post war, both would have been known by RJ.
Finally it was stated in later books, that Ishamael was manipulating, everybody, this must have included the boys, the dreams in the early books were more shards than tel’aran’rhiod so were not foreshadowng, but a sort of compulsion
Mike
@31 alreadymad
re: Aemon ~ Emond
Exactly.
Al’cair’rahienallen -> Cairhien (and I only had to verify the apostrophes…I’m such a nerd)
Mafal Dadaranell -> Fal Dara (no looking up…NEEEEEEEEERD!)
We’re running into these kind of name shifts all over the place and from the very beginning too. Lenn -> John Glenn, Materese -> Mother Teresa, Mosk & Merk -> Moscow & America…that’s why I was so surprised that Leigh only picked up the Aemon -> Emond now.
With Moiraine’s story, “Ameon’s Field” and the earlier “catch the real world allusion” game, I thought this was intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, as the popular saying goes. And in this case I mean that without even a hint of irony.
It’s fascinating how little thing still jump out on the 4th or 5th re-read. It’s certainly not a big deal to me, but…Rand makes a comparison to the speed of an ocean wave at the beginning of chapter 9. How does Rand know anything about ocean waves? Or, with a couple possible exceptions, how does anyone else in Emond’s Field? Even so, Rand makes the comparison as if he has actually seen ocean waves, not just heard about them.
My first thought on Rand’s Tar Valon dream (on my first re-read, of course, not on first read!) was that Ishy was to blame but on further reflection, I don’t really see that. He certainly knew he had many Black Ajah members in Tar Valon who could have delivered Rand to him and the Dark One, but at this point he’s not really sure which of the three boys is the Dragon Reborn. So I guess I would go with the interpretation that Rand’s subconscious came up with the dream.
I did see on first read the connection between Aemon and Emond’s Field and the Al’Thorin/Al’Thor connection as well.
Ways @34: Rand knows about ocean waves in the dream. The same dream where he recognizes
Mount DoomShayol Ghul. This is foreshadowing that he is LTT reborn, and, at least in his dreams, he is already remembering stuff from his previous life.On the chapter icons: Because Chapter 9 starts with the dream, and Ishy was behind this, I thought the Dragon’s Fang was actually very apt. The chapter further includes the Fall of Manetheren, where Ishy and the Dark Side were very much involved too.
Chapter 10: apparently, this is supposed to be a staff. That’s been said before, but the most I see in the icon is a flaming sword… IMO, it’s too curly to be a proper staff, whereas licking flames…
Emond/Aemon: that I got, but somehow missed al Thorin/al’Thor… Funny how selective my mind works!
Finally, the best part of doing these re-reads is that you really take the time to read the text. I wouldn’t call myself a speedreader, but my first read of anything is usually a lot faster than a speed necessary to catch something like bones freezing up. I probably just took that as something metaphorically on first reading, but reading that for the second time (and third, and fourth, and fifth…), it suddenly becomes so obvious. It’s hiding in plain sight, excellent writing!
Bouke @36
The problem I have with the LTT-memories explanation is that LTT wouldn’t know what Dragonmount and Tar Valon look like. He died during the creation of the former and almost 100 years before the latter was built.
The Ishy-planted-dream theory has holes in it too, as BillinHI points out. Rand’s (vivid) imagination coupled with stories and legends he has heard seems like the most plausible explanation.
If the dream is (partly) TAR Rand doesn’t have to know places to see them as they really are (or even as they are in some parallel world).
@37 Ways
Why not a combination of all of the above? Ishy-nception + LTT-seepage + legends/stories + weird-ass dream wonkiness?
Ways @37, but Rand does not recognize Dragonmount and Tar Valon, he only recognizes Shayol Ghul in the dream. So he recognized Shayol Ghul because of his memories of being LTT, that is why he knows what an ocean is too.
On Rand seeing fair representations of Dragonmount and Tar Valon: Ishy does know what Dragonmount and Tar Valon look like, so he could portray these effectively. And as Birgit @38 says, the dream could also touch on the Dreamworld, where they would definitely be represented correctly.
Bouke @40
My point was that Rand’s visions of Dragonmount and Tar Valon are clearly not LTT memory leakage. Shayol Guhl and ocean waves could be. However, I personally don’t favor a mixed-mode explanation, it’s too arm-wavy. T’A’R makes the most sense to me, but what’s the mechanism? Is it simply an early manifestation of the Dragon Reborn? It can’t be Ishy pushing buttons b/c, as BillinHI noted, Ishy hasn’t yet determined which of the lads will turn out to be the DR. All 3 of them would be expected to have the same dream at this point in the story. None of the foregoing explain the ocean wave metaphor though. The shore/beach wasn’t a place Rand visited in his dream, the ocean wave only a comparison made.
25. Randalator
You forgot a dash of “Me Tarzan, You Jane”.
The dream, I think, should not be overanalyzed. At this early stage t is not even clear if Jordan had codifed the rules of TAR in his mind. This dream is a standard ominous mood-setting dream; it also serves to prepare the reader for the more significant dreams later in the novel.
Is there some meta-joke that I’m not getting? Of course “Draghkar” sounds like a scuzzy cologne to you, it’s reminding you of Drakkar Noir.
@34 Ways: Good catch about the ocean waves there. Easy to forget for readers (and authors) that things as familiar as that would of course be unfamiliar to a lot of people in this setting.
Once again, Leigh, it was ToM where Rand went to Tar Valon, not AMoL (unless you’re counting all three Sanderson volumes as AMoL). And considering he didn’t visit it until after the Black Ajah was purged (although Mesaana was still hiding there), it is indeed a good thing he waited so long. Ironic, since the thing that made him stay away was what the Tower delegation did to him in the box (a Shadow plot)…and then not wanting to go near Elaida. She actually did do something good for the Light! :P
As for the dream…would this be another sign of the Pattern/the Light gently nudging things? Rand isn’t a Dreamer like Egwene is, but this isn’t the last time he receives a dream that isn’t from Ishamael but which imparts real information of a sort–the next time being during the trip to Caemlyn with Almen Bunt, when he dreams of Thom quoting to him about the Dragon’s Fisher King effect. This seems to tell me that the Light isn’t just sending Dreams to Egwene, but also regular but still prophetic dreams to Rand. It’s likely also responsible for the “windows” Perrin sees in the wolf dream.
Side note: still love the foreshadowing of Rand’s future wounds by the sword hilt jabbing into his side.
Why was Eldrene not on the battlefield? For the same reason Birgitte wouldn’t let Elayne in the thick of the fighting until there was no other option, and why the Tower won’t let the Amyrlin put herself in danger except in certain circumstances: because she was a leader, and her role as Queen of Manetheren was more important than her status as an Aes Sedai. And really, if she was the only Aes Sedai in Manetheren at the time, her presence wouldn’t have made much difference (until she used her sa’angreal, or however she managed that last attack), and if there were other Aes Sedai, they could handle the Shadowspawn fine without her. If there really were supposed to be reinforcements from the Tower which never came because of Tetsuan’s betrayal, maybe she was waiting for them and that’s why she wasn’t out fighting. Anyway, the bottom line is this is why there hasn’t been an Aes Sedai ruler in so long–because such a person would in most cases be too busy leading to be out there channeling. Only when it was absolutely necessary did she become involved, and of course by then it was too late…
Speaking of Aes Sedai leaders, of course now we know that the other reason for the story of Manetheren, besides letting us know just how awesome and badass the people of the Two Rivers are and will be for the rest of the series, was to foreshadow Egwene pulling the same sacrifice as Eldrene. Which…wow. *sniff* And she even did so after losing her husband, a great warrior. (Was Aemon Eldrene’s Warder, the same as Gawyn was Egwene’s? That would seem to be the only way she could have felt him die.)
I always thought it was obvious where the name of the town came from; Moiraine even says the final battle in Manetheren happened at Aemon’s Field, which draws the connection. Interesting you would point out al’Thor is likely short for al Thorin, considering Thorin was Aemon’s grandfather and Aemon was reincarnated as Mat. Even though Rand is descended from the Aiel (and House Mantear), this is a case of him still being woven in with the ancestry of one of his ta’veren companions, and in a way that even echoes his original name of Lews Therin…
Lan’s mouthiness makes sense. While it’s been twenty years since then, the last time we saw Lan chronologically before this book he’d just lost Bukama, as well as his carneira‘s daughter–and he’d been ready to go off on his suicidal mission in the Blight when Moiraine convinced him to become her Warder. I doubt much occurred in the intervening twenty years to make him forget what happened–he certainly was ready to go off and avenge Malkier as soon as he got the opportunity in KoD. So essentially, he doesn’t have much reason to be happy, well-behaved, or nice. He has yet to be ‘softened’ by Nynaeve (or for that matter, Rand).
I want to say Thom did have an inkling, but I can’t figure out how he could. Even if he knows every bit of the Prophecies of the Dragon (which I don’t think he does, does anyone? Even the Aes Sedai don’t know them all unless they make it a point to study them like Siuan, Moiraine, Verin and Cadsuane), I don’t recall anything in the prophecies which suggests the Dragon Reborn will be found in Manetheren or its remnants. (The bit about being “raised by the old blood” is in the Aiel prophecy, not the Karaethon Cycle.) Unless we’re supposed to assume an Aes Sedai taking interest in young men, combined with what happened just after the Aiel War (was Gitara’s Foretelling common knowledge? Would Thom have heard about it from Morgase?), indicates as such. If he had any inkling one of them could channel that would do it, since the only reason an Aes Sedai wouldn’t be immediately carting him off to be gentled was if he was the Dragon Reborn…but Rand hasn’t given those signs at this point. So…if Thom does suspect, I don’t know how or why.
Bela: remains awesome. And I have to say that I was pretty certain something unusual was up in how she suddenly seemed to gain strength and ride faster right after Rand was urging her on and hoping/praying for her to go faster, and how she didn’t need cleasing of fatigue like the other mounts. Did I conclude from this Rand could channel? No, but I believe the idea did come to mind; I just didn’t conclude it for certain since it was very circumstantial evidence. (Though what else could explain Bela, I hadn’t a clue.) It was the boom on Domon’s ship that gave it away to me for sure, especially combined with Rand’s antics a few days later.
On the icons: while your reasoning makes sense, I am guessing the reason they were chosen as they were was because Chapter 9 also involved the villagers getting ready to use the torches and pitchforks on Moiraine, the same kind of attitude that led to someone scrawling a Dragon’s Fang on the inn door just because it was where Moiraine was staying. I agree though that your re-ordering makes more sense.
The people of Emond’s Field may be isolated, but based on the way Master Hightower acts, and other examples we get later on in TSR, I think they’re quite right to be wary of Taren Ferry folk. Speaking of the ferry, I always enjoyed how this particular Tolkienism was played with–instead of the heroes riding across by themselves and the Black Riders being forced to go the long way because they won’t cross running water if they don’t have to, we get magical fog to hide them from the Draghkar and Fades, an actual ferryman to take them over…and then in the next chapter, Moiraine destroying it to hide their passage. Badass, and also the first sign of many that she isn’t playing around and will do whatever it takes to win.
@@@@@5 DougL: Weren’t we told that it’s by using the Power more extensively that Aes Sedai become better able to wield it and increase their strength? Basically, Moiraine being out in the world and using it so often would be akin to being forced, I think.
@@@@@7 alreadymad: A fixed point, yes, but they can reach it faster if they are forced, which can make them seem unnaturally stronger compared to ones who haven’t achieved their full potentials yet.
@@@@@11 Samadai: That matches my thoughts above.
@@@@@15 gadget: LOL, well said re: the Dragon icon. You’re also right about the second meeting and the discovery of the seals being fake happening at the Tower. (I had to check myself, for some reason I thought it happened in her tent at Merrilor.)
@@@@@16 JeffS: Yes, my small town in Iowa was much the same, even if it was simply rural and not populated by nothing but farmers.
@@@@@17 AndrewHB: Nice insight on Thom. And I too wonder what Moiraine was thinking; she seemed to glare at him only because he was talking and making noise (or perhaps because he referenced Draghkar being made at the end of the Age of Legends, and she didn’t like being reminded it was a former Aes Sedai who did so?), but there may have been more to it… Anyway, I doubt he knew who she was, since she didn’t introduce herself by name and he doesn’t say it himself until their talk in the Stone in TSR. Off-hand I’d guess he asked about her in Cairhien (since he knew where she was from) and that’s how he learned. How she learned who he was is anyone’s guess, but she did mention in TGH that she had seen Elayne; maybe while she was in Caemlyn for that she happened to learn of Thom from Morgase?
@@@@@21 Alphaleonis: LOL I’d forgotten about that…good old Mistress Luhhan. Speaking of asides from that same chapter, I had to snort at Thom thinking Fain had ended up in a Trolloc’s cookpot, considering that’s what he is continually threatened with all the way to Shadar Logoth.
@@@@@23 Drayrs: That makes sense.
@@@@@24 birgit: *blinks* I completely missed that. I guess I always thought he meant Egwene, but you could be on to something. Though why would he be getting a memory this early, when he hasn’t even channeled yet?
@@@@@27 Randalator: Agreed.
@@@@@29 danieldelgado: Indeed. Look at what happened with Mili Skane, who wanted to channel, and when she was turned away from the Tower because she couldn’t she turned to the Shadow instead. If that isn’t her still seeking power in some fashion, it’s certainly showing she had a proclivity for doing whatever she had to to get what she wanted. And of course some people, like Liandrin, were already Darkfriends before they came to the Tower.
@@@@@30 Porphyrogenitus: Good points, but see also mine above re: Rand having at least one other dream that didn’t come from Ishamael, and the idea that the Pattern or the Light could be taking a hand here.
@@@@@31 alreadymad: Interesting point. It seems that the amount of Power needed to affect Shadowspawn so specifically, or on a grand scale, also takes a lot out of the user as a matter of course. The meta reason for this is of course to explain why Lightside channelers aren’t just blasting away the bad guys all the time to the point they aren’t even a threat. In-story I’d guess it has something to do with it being harder to target something as intrinsic as one’s inner nature with a weave (note the difficulty in Turning). Or maybe it’s just related to one’s strength in the Power (as both Eldrene and Rand are/were very strong), with the effects it had on them showing that even they can’t use such abilities with impunity. Even magic has limits.
@@@@@32 TheWeatherman: Very interesting information! That suggests the theory proposed @@@@@30 is indeed the likely explanation–a Paul Revere’s ride where it was Shadowspawn and Dreadlords being warned of rather than redcoats. Note also the name of the third Two Rivers town, Watch Hill, implies a similar watchman/observer/warning system network.
@@@@@33 Randalator: LOL!
@@@@@ several re: the dream–Perhaps my theory about the Creator/Pattern/Light being behind the dream would explain it? Ishamael doesn’t know yet which of the boys is the Dragon Reborn, but the Pattern/Creator would, and it could provide the imagery and proper representation of places which Rand and/or Lews Therin could not have. Just food for thought!
In later dreams, all three boys have the same dream, but interact slightly differently with Ishy. How does that work? If it is all at the same time all of them should hear Ishy’s answers to something one of them said or did.
Just one quick comment before the next reread comes out. To everyone saying that Rand recognised Shayol Ghul by Lews Therin’s memories, correct me if I’m wrong, but Shayol Ghul changed dramatically from the sealing to Rand’s time. Island to current location. Unless Rand/LTT are recognising the thinness in the Pattern?
@47 Black Camel
I don’t think we ever get any definitive info whether Shayol Ghul refers to the location itself or to the actual mountain. Or in fact if the mountain replaced the island during the decades of war or if it was a product of the Breaking.
So, could Rand have recognized the mountain by LTT’s memories? The answer is a perfectly clear “maybe”…
Probably been pointed out in the comments, but Thom explicitly states that he suspected one of the boys of being a channeller, and, you know, Owen. He didn’t suspect the Dragon Reborn, though. Not that he said. He just thought Moiraine was trying to slip away with a channeller and get him gentled the sneaky way.
macster@44:
Why else would three teenage farm boys be carted off by an Aes Sedai? To become warders? Seems more unlikely then even channeling. And, I would say, given Thom’s past and his general dislike of Aes Sedai (not to mention the Aes Sedai he most closely associated with was Elida of all people), its completely reasonable to my mind that he would make the leap to capturing a channeler.
Also more directly to your point… A single Aes Sedai alone with just her warder, might very well resort to trickery and subtlety to capture a male channeller who may or may not already know how to channel and may or may not be significantly stronger than she. So, Thom doesn’t even need to make the leap from channeller to Dragon Reborn to want to be a thorn in Moiraine’s side.
@51 anthonypero
Even more directly to your point… Thom’s trauma re: Owyn vs. Aes Sedai is probably so strong that “young boys in Aes Sedai clutches” is already enough incentive with the qualifier “channeler” being completely optional.
This early in the story, Thom could at best theorize that channeling of the male persuasion might be involved. Up to this point there hasn’t even been any saidining (I’m sorry! I’m sorry!). But at the end of the day (or Winternight, rather), it’s an Aes Sedai whisking away three boys who still think a two-story house is a bloody skyscraper. Evidently that’s more than enough for his protective instinct to shift into overdrive…
Still playing catch up. RE: the dream, part of the first half’s imagery, specifically the bit about the rolling fog and the lights flaring within immediately brought the Last Battle to mind, with all the Aes Sedai and Aiel Wise Women running around throwing the power at each other in that whole mess. Is it possible that that part was actually a (not-so)blatant premonition of what was going to happen that far down the line?